chase overdraft line of credit
Put simply, overdraft protection is a line of credit. If you overdraw your checking account, that doesn’t mean you have passed a bad check. Passing a bad check can lead to a misdemeanor or felony criminal conviction. Triggering your bankвЂ™s overdraft protection is you incurring a debt to your bank.
LetвЂ™s illustrate the difference. Three parties are involved when a person writes a check (this is the super-simplified version of what happens when you pay by check).
- Purchaser: the person writing the check and buying either goods or services.
- Merchant: the seller who is receiving the check as payment for goods or services.
- Bank: the bank where the purchaser has the checking account upon which the check is drawn. В
John, the purchaser, goes to Wal-Mart, the merchant, to buy a Blu-Ray disk player. John banks with Chase. John writes a check to Wal-Mart for $120.00 to buy the disk player. Wal-Mart will then submit the check to Chase for payment.
How Does Overdraft Protection Work versus a Bad Check?
- If John has sufficient funds in his account, Chase will pay Wal-Mart the value of the check. В
- If John does not have sufficient funds in his account, Chase has two options: В
- Chase can honor the check and pay Wal-Mart. If Chase does so, it has loaned John that money by way of an overdraft line of credit. John now owes Chase $120. This can happen even if John doesn’t officially have overdraft protection with Chase. В
- Chase can dishonor the check and return it to Wal-Mart unpaid. If Chase does so, John has now passed a bad check. John now owes Wal-Mart $120 and Wal-Mart can try to collect that money civilly or attempt to press criminal charges for passing a bad check. В
An overdrawn checking account is only a civil debt. An overdrawn checking account does not carry with it criminal penalties. However, if the bank, rightfully, dishonors the check, the purchaser may face both civil and criminal liability for passing a bad check. Note, criminal liability typically requires that the purchaser know, or reasonably should have known, that funds were insufficient to cover the check.
A bankruptcy will discharge (eliminate) the debt of an overdraft line of credit. However, a bankruptcy does not relieve a debtor from the potentially criminal liability for passing a bad check.
Image courtesy of David Castillo Dominici / FreeDigitalPhotos.net
This entry was posted on Friday, November 8th, 2013 at 2:28 pm and is filed under Chapter 7 Bankruptcy, Debt Collection. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
Banks Can Manipulate Your Transactions, Then Charge You 1750% Overdraft Fee
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When Jeff Ledford overdrew $10 from his checking account, Bank of America charged him five separate overdraft fees totaling $175.
That's a 1750% interest for going over $10. (Jeff is unemployed, by the way.)
Your Bank's Dirty Trick
Jeff got screwed because his bank dealt with his charges out of order, processing the largest transaction first.
This common practice allows banks to deplete your account faster, thus making it easier for them to charge you unnecessary penalties.
This was not a one-time mistake or the stupid policy of a single bank. This is the industry standard. No wonder banks are set to make a record $38.5 billion in overdraft fees this year. (See also: Debit Cards vs. Credit Cards: Fees and Fraud Protection)
Your Accounting vs. Your Bank's Accounting
Most customers expect banks to take out money in chronological order like this:
Since the overdraft happens on the last day, you would expect only one overdraft fee.
But that's not how your bank sees it. They've decided to process the largest transaction first:
Thanks to your bank's creative accounting they can now charge you four extra overdraft fees!
This Could Happen To You
This is a very common practice, reports CBS 13 News which broke this story.
When CBS asked bankers to respond, they justified this as a service they provide to their customers!
Rod Brown with the California Bankers Association says it's normal practice for banks to process charges from the largest to smallest.
He's quick to point out, there's no law that says they can't. When Kurtis asked him if he could see how the public would think the banking industry is manipulating charges to make the most profit, he said, "No I can't."
"Consumer research indicates that those larger transactions are of greater importance to the consumer," Brown said. "It might be a car payment. It might be a mortgage payment."
CBS asked Brown, "Shouldn't I, as a consumer, be able to determine which payments are most important first?"
Brown replied, "As a consumer what you can control is the fact you either have money in your account or you don't."
That's not entirely correct. We also have control over other things. We can take our money elsewhere, stop bailing out the banking industry, or support legislation that will reform overdraft policies.
I personally agree with CBS that the consumer, and not the banks, should decide which transactions are the most important.
What do you think readers? Are the banks acting in your best interest with their accounting rules? Do you have an overdraft horror story?
If you're not familiar with all the traps your bank has set for you, check out Philip's excellent guide to avoiding unfair banking fees.
(Chart credit: BruinKid of Daily Kos and CBS 13.)
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There is actually a bill in Congress now to make this practice illegal.
In the UK at the moment, there is a massive case ongoing between our Office of Fair Trading and 8 banks. Banks here were charing almost £40 for unaithorised overdrafts etc. In 2005 people started claiming them back and then the claims were suspended following a decision to take a test case to court. The High Court ruled that the OFT has the power to assess charges. Banks appealed. The Appeal Court ruled that the OFT does have the right. So the banks took it to the Supreme Court and their decision is due this week.
What is basically means is that, if the Supreme Court rules as the High Court and the Appeals Court did, the banks could end up repaying £10 billion.
Bank charges are a joke. They really are. What a way to hit the people who are most financially in need.
I have had an account with Wells Fargo for many years. Over the past few years I have seen the manipulation of funds in and out of my account working in Wells Fargo favor! They have manipulated funds so that they can get more, NOW $35.00 OD charges. I called to complain and got this wise guy that kept telling me that he would not talk to me if I would not listen. I was trying to tell him that my deposit was there and they manipulated transactions in WF favor! He told me that they can do that and nothing was illegal about it! If I dared to disagree, he tells me he did not have to talk to me because I was not listening! (In other words if I did not agree with his explanation I was not listening) I am most disappointed about this. I do not think that legislation can come soon enough. This is absolute highway robbery! I am telling everyone that I know about this and considering moving all of my accounts! Wouldn't it be nice if they had to repay all of the manipulated OD charges with interest?
My bank is infamous to me for Manipulating my transactions AFTER they have POSTED. Waited for me to go over, (which was only 6$ so I didn't get a fee) They took a transaction that went through on an earlier date and erased it to make it say it went through when I was over already. this to make me over 16 dollars and aquire a 35 dollar fee. I don't receive paper statements because they were useless only giving me my balance and a blank page. therefore, I can't prove that it in fact went through 6 days earlier! Is there anything we can do to help this bill pass??
The solution is simple. Don't use money that you don't have.
As with most things, a little personal accountability is in order.
You must work for a bank to make a comment like that. I used to work for a bank and when I realized their policy on overdraft I was horrified and whenever someone called or came to me for help I placed the items in smallest to largest order and recalculated the charges. The thing about the "larger charges being more important" is that do you see that usually all the charges are being paid? So what difference does it make how they rank them if they are all getting paid by the bank anyway? Most banks will let you go $500 in the negative if you are a customer of theirs for a reasonable amount of time (6 months or more) with an avg. bal. of
$300. They do this not for service but for profitability! I found another job ASAP because all they cared about was how they could sell more products to people who were already strapped for money. Best thing you can do is watch your account like a hawk, keep a small savings account that is linked for overdraft incase you do make a mistake and ignore the tellers when they offer you home equity loans and credit cards. Better yet, tell the managers of these places you will pull your account unless they stop acting like salespeole every time you come in. The tellers are tired of the practices too!
Thank you AndyM for your so very wise advice on not using money you don't have. If only it were that simple. Don't you think that if it were that simple the banks wouldn't be making so much money on charging the overdraft fee's? Let me guess, you've never overdrawn before. Yeah, right.
Sorry we're not as perfect as you are. Just because someone goes in the negative on their account doesn't make them stupid or careless. Haven't you heard that we are in a recession and people are living paycheck to paycheck?
Such as when you deposit cash after close of busness and write a check from those funds even later and the check is withdrawn as same day business but the deposit is posted next day? Did I have the money? Not after four overdrafts no one at the bank could explain.
What an ignorant statement to make. The United States has one of the highest poverty rates among industrialized countries. The cost of living is overwhelmingly higher than most can afford making minimum wage. Even with sacrifices, impoverished and lower, and sometimes middle class Americans can not always make ends meet. It seems to me that you're a victim of the fundamental attribution error.
Banks have other tricks. Mysteriously deposits have 4:00pm posting cut-offs while charges continue posting until the entire day. They also seem to "true up" at the end of the day. I recently obtained a refund of 9 NSF fees because of our bank's peculiar rules. The bank issued a credit which did not post until after midnight (they did manage to post the day's charges before the credit; (even those that were charged after they issued the credit).
Then there's "THE CREDIT CARD HOLD GAME". They play a game with credit card holds. It works in this way. I charge a credit card on Jan 10. The bank then places a hold on my account. On Jan 12, if the account is overdrawn; (because of an unexpected fee) they debit my account for money that was not paid out and won't be paid out until Jan 13. Then when I deposit funds into the account on Jan 12, the transaction clears (is paid) without issue the next day, but there is an NSF fee charge from the 11th. Nice!
The easiest way to avoid this is to not permit a credit card charge if there is not sufficient money in the linked account. But no, alas, at Wachovia Bank this simple limitation seems to be nearly impossible. (although they are able to handle all the other programming gymnastics to maximize the fees charged.)
That would be utopia, but how do you do that when banks are not processing as transactions as they come through.
there for it throws my check book off.
Hmmm. maybe one day when you overdraw ACCIDENTALLY you will understand. But oh wait. You're so high and mighty, I bet you'd never do that!
I'm all for personal accountablility, If I made the mistake of overdrafting my account, I accept the responsibility of paying the overdraft fee. However in my case I only overdrafted once, meaning I pay a single charge of $35.00 I have no problem with that, none at all. Most people shouldn't either, However what I do have a problem with is that in that very same case, they manipulated the transactions so that I ended up paying 7 $35.00 overdrafts instead of 1. This I have a very big problem with. I simply want them to charge in the order received, as I check my bank account every day to make sure there is money in there before using the money, and even keeping mental notes of things already purchased that havent posted yet. Trust me in that they make it very difficult to keep track of your money. The other people like yourself say we should keep a ledger.. lol if thats the case why dont we dump the debit cards and go back to checks and the writing system. How do you introduce new technology for our convenience and then ask us to still bank in the old ways when they screw us with their technology. Doesn't make much sense for the consumer.
It really is that simple. I just got charged my first overdraft fee. I mismanaged an account transfer while making a large purchase. Transferred the amount to my savings then realized it was being pulled from checking. Wachovia charged me 10$ for the overdraft protection. Guess what? I would've been charged 4x that from the other bank for insufficient funds when they went to pull the money. Next time I won't be careless with the transfer.
It really is that simple. Don't spend money you don't have. I don't understand why its that hard. Don't write a check you currently don't have funds for. Balance your checkbook. Don't use a debit card if you don't have the money. People whining about the recession, its no excuse. That's why we're in a recession. My neighbor lost his job, whines about cash, but won't sell his Porsche. Welcome to America.
LMAO!! I am a former bank manager and we were trained to say what you just said. We were told that if we made the customer feel embarrassed by our ridiculous tactics, they would let it go. And though it was legal, it was morally and ethically repulsive.
Are you kidding me? You think it's okay for a bank to manipulate your funds and overdraft people? Ridiculous!
Personal accountability - yes. What about corporate accountability too? When banks GET to keep all of our collective money (people, never forget that you are doing them a service as they get to earn interest and benefit from holding all the funds of a huge population of consumers) and they set all the rules in motion to maximize their ability to charge NSF fees in excess of $34 on charges as small as 80 cents: they order transactions to maximize the effect, they hold deposits and have cut off times for deposits while rushing debits and allowing those to continue posting unfettered 24 hours a day. In reality, they have made all the rules, put the game in motion with the traps set, now they are just meerly lying in wait for one of us to trip. The whole scheme is engineered to benefit those who are holding OUR money. THEN, they directly debit their fees - every other vendor I know of gets to invoice their fees. THEN, if the fees they debit take you further into NSF they keep to keep on charging you NSFs on subsequent transactions. snowballing and maximizing their ill gained profits. All this while engaged in seducive marketing tactics to get the average American into the insanley profitable trap of CONSUMER DEBT so they can ultimately end up charging you a monthly fee/amount for the remainder of your life. Again, all the while asking from Congress for these SAME tax payers they are fleecing to fut the bill for multi-billion dollar bails outs. AGAIN, all the while their CEOs and CFOs get multi-million dollar bonuses for profits they "earned" jacking the average American for millions of dollars in unfair/unethical fees and tax-payer funded bail outs. YES, a conversation on accountability IS in order.
you answer is a preconceived notion that makes it sound like you are not even reading the posts. these bank are manipulating transactions to cause you to overdraft when you are not even spending past yoru means. how would you like it if you checked your online statement and it said you had $50 so you go to the store and spend $40 then next day you are hit with and overdraft because you actuallly didnt have $50 you had $30 and went over $10, but i guess thats your own fault for believing online statements, they are so inaccuarate. if you are going to offer me a service i.e. debit card have a method of keeping accurate records. i literaly have to balance my debit card like a check book. i dont want a debit card i want cash money but beings employers are going to debit cards also you are kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. i had my bank do this to me several times before i knew what was going on so i canceled my direct deposit and went back to paycheck and guess what no finacial trouble"because i am not irresponsible with my money" so when my job switched to debit cards i decided to give my same bank a second try and guess what? they did the same exact thing to me right off the bat and beings i had only made two purchases i was able to see that they manipulated my balance. we are pretty much living our lives by the banks terms, and that my freind i dont think anyone wants.
It's not that easy all the time. I once transferred money into my account that morning before work. Then I bought lunch that afternoon. My bank processed my lunch before they processed the transfer. How is that my fault and how am I not showing personal accountability. Why would the bank not process the transfer first? That's kinda important to me. Instead, they overdraw my account first and charge me $35 for it.
doesn't matter if there is money in there, they manipulate it anyways, like the person said they show things cleared and then they take it off to make it seem like they didn't go through yet, we learned along time ago to get constant updated prints, highlighting the things that had gone through, and yes we would get on at a later time and that charge would be gone, and yes even our deposits, so get on constantly and print out ur balances and statements online. we had to use our copies to get them to take off the charges, and wouldn't you know we have not had anymore problems ,hmmmmmm
Even if you have the money, somehow the banks still manage to screw you. My husband and I have a Wells Fargo account. Back when it was Wachovia we never ever had an overdraft problem. As soon as Wells Fargo took over, I noticed they were debiting charges and adding them back in, holding it for days and then taking it out again. Wachovia always debited the charges right away. What you saw is what you had. Now, we have a number of automatic payments and even though I have made a list of the amounts that are debited and the dates, there really is no telling when the bank will actually deduct the money. In short, we are never really certain how much money we actually have in our account. I cancelled our overdraft protection and I recommend to others that they do the same. Maybe when the bank sees they gain nothing from holding your debits they will start authorizing them in the order they are received. Paying $35 for a .52 charge is insane.
It's not always just about not having the money. I deposited a check, and the check showed up online on my bank account (shows up cleared, not pending). I paid my rent online the following day, and after a few days I check the bank website and it shows the rent coming out of the account before the check was deposited (both show as taking place on the same day) resulting in an overdraft.
Been there, done that, lost my t-shirt.
btw, hmmm people make mistakes, don't be self rightous.
Guest1, thanks for the suggestion. I've added a link in the main post to the legislation.
AndyM, of course that is the ultimate solution to most financial problems. Do you think the punishment fits the crime in this case?
Yogi, I'm sorry to hear you also had a bad experience. Would love to hear more about it if it's not too personal.
What about when a Bank Holds a large check for several days before processing it into the account. Without the funds, That should have been in the account, then there are a massive amount of overdraft fees that would never have happened if the check had been processed.
When we asked Washington Trust Bank about this, they said that they started a policy that they have the right to hold large checks before they can deposit it into the bank. Of course, we, not knowing about this, paid bills and we were charged a hefty overdraft fee.
Is that even legal?
They make $38.5 billion this year from overdraft fees alone this year, of course it benefits them. Of course they are going to lie about it. Just another way they have been screwing over their customers.
Funny it's our money but we can't chose how it's handled when it's in these accounts. I personally have not had a bank account for 20 years. I've heard too many problems where they do this and also don't credit deposits for up to a week hoping to create overdrawn accounts.
Honestly all this plus the bad loans and adding hidden fees on loans, someone should be going to jail. At least there is legislation that hopefully will go through and hopefully keep some of this from happening. Somehow though I think banks will just get sneaker with manipulating our money.
I am replying to the comment above, there was no reply button there:
Banks will HOLD a large CHECK deposit for up to 3 business days, BUT it will be PENDING and you CAN write checks or use a credit card against that pending amount, as long as the check clears (the funds will be shown as having been deposited on the actual day you presented it), you will NOT be charged any fees while the amount is PENDING. However, You will not be able to use DEBIT or use the pending amount for CASH, until the DATE the check has Cleared (3 business days after your presentation date).
If the check does NOT clear, you balance will reflect that as of the day of original check presentation, and all fees applicable will be charged back to that presentation date.
If the check clears, wait 2 more business days, as the account that check was written to may have OD or closed! Then you are out of money for that amount - 5 business days LATER!, and all fees back-chargeable will be applied!
I have been screwed by BofA so many times. I call each time and they give me lame stories about how things get processed late and stuff. Even if I have proof otherwise they say there is nothing they can do.
Luckily, July 1st is gonna be a good day for consumers seeing as how the Fed is making banks let customers opt-out of overdraft charges.
Still, I think banks should treat overdraft as a loan instead of fees. How about letting me just pay back what went negative with a reasonable interest rate? Is that really too much to ask for?
I TOTALLY agree with you. I can't stand Bank of America. I have had an account with them for years and have had nothing but headaches with them. Through the years, they must have gotten thousands of dollars from my husband and I. Recently, we made our 2nd home modification payment with Wells Fargo and Bank of America pulled their garbage and rearranged my transactions. They sent my mortgage payment back to Wells Fargo several times and each time I got hit $35 for it coming in and $35 for it coming out. Now, we may get kicked out of the Making Home Affordable Program because of Bank of America. In the past, they have at least covered my mortgage payment--not this time. They are ruthless! Every bit of money we made went into the account to try to get it in the positive. The last time I added up all of the fees over about a month, it was at about $700; I stopped counting after that as it just kept escalating. Eventually, the account was in the positive so my husband went down and withdrew what was in there and went in to complain to the manager. They said they couldn't do anything like freeze the account--then he caught on and said, "I CAN close my account now because it is in the positive." So, we closed the account after far too many years of abuse and being robbed by Bank of America. Here is a message that I have on my blog regarding the whole banking industry in general: http://homeschoolblogger.com/divineinspirations/664480/
My Fiancé's step mother works for BofA and even she hates their practices- they are one of the worst!
I am just wondering, has anyone ever had any problems with Capital One? When I got my first real job after college, I closed my BofA account (which charged a monthly fee just for having an account with them if my balance was below a certain limit. I hated that), and I opened an account with ING. Then a year or two later ING was bought by Capitol One and re-branded as Capital One 360. I have never had ANY problems with either ING or Capital One 360 after they bought ING - no sneaky fees or tricks ever. My paycheck is set up for direct deposit into my checking account and always shows up immediately and in the correct order. All of my bills are also set up for auto debit from my checking account, except for a few that I pay manually, but I still use Capital One's Bill Pay center to pay those, and I have never had any problems. Additionally, at least a couple times a year, I will transfer money from my savings account to my checking account literally seconds before making a purchase when I know my balance is low, and I have never been hit with any overdraft fees or had the order of my transactions manipulated ever in almost 5 years of banking with them. The only downside of Capitol One 360 is they are completely online - there is no physical "branch" you can go to (except for a few "banking cafes" in sparse locations that I have never been to), but this has never been a problem for me as their online and mobile app services are always simple, efficient and reliable. I would highly recommend people check it out if they are dissatisfied with their current/previous banks!
It's happened to me several times, with a twist.
If I know that I'm running low on funds, I'll drop some cash in the ATM. However, my bank (US Bank) doesn't process that transaction citing that I might be fraudulently depositing funds or that the funds I'm depositing might not be a valid transaction (despite me depositing cash.)
So, the deposited funds don't get added to my account for 24-72 hours.
However, as soon as I swipe my ATM for a transaction, the bank has already debited that cash from my account. Despite there physically being enough money to cover it from my deposit, the bank does not recognize that cash. But it DOES recognize an attempted use of the ATM card.
I might add that in my years of being a US Bank customer, I have never fraudulently deposited funds to make the account seem inflated (e.g. depositing $50, but keying in $500.)
When asked about it, US Bank shrugs and gives me a big "meh."
usbank will do this to you. I have not overdrafted in a while or frequently, but when i do they ALWAYS re-arrange the order of the purchases as exactly described in the article. So I called them and we had it out. I told them that I know they are running a scam, and I am familiar how fractional reserve banking works. I.E. for every 1,000 I deposit they get to create 9,000 of federal reserve funny money out of thin air. So I I close my accounts they lose the fake money they get to leverage due to the private non governmental federal reserve banking system. Then the idiot on the phone tried to tell me it was my lunch on Friday that did it, which was AFTER I received my direct deposit from work. I said you do this again and it's going to the Attourney Generals office, if they don't stop you, then how about a commercial lien against your local branch office's real estate for the amount of fradulent charges I incurred?
They refunded all but one of the charges.
Since then all charges have been processed in the "correct" order.
I have Commerce Bank and I will deposit CASH and every once in a while, they will put it in there, so I can see it for 24 hours, then it will mysteriously disappear, and stuf goes through because I put money in, so I paid bills! They claim they "have no idea" how it happened, but I get charged anyway >:| crooked people!
when BAC and Citigroup, the banks that got government aid the most, won't refund you overdraft fees incurred in case of stolen debit card, just the stolen money. Prepare to lose $300 when your debit card gets stolen. It's as if they want people to keep using creditcards and "consumers".
I agree with one of the other commenters.
This is just more motivation for us to have the least bit of personal accountability and know what we have in our account.
As easy as it is to check your balance now, this should be a no-brainer--especially when faced with the prospect of a 1700% fee.
Sure, with some people, they just need to pay attention to what's in their account. But even being anal retentive about it sometimes doesn't help.
I started banking with Chase years ago. I have a checking account that I NEVER use my checks for, thus making it easier to know when everything goes through, and not risking that late-processed check. Chase allows you to text them to check your account balance, and last 5 transactions.
Now keep in mind, the first year and a half, every purchase I made, even gas at the pump, would go through immediately. I could text and get my present balance right away. If it worked any other way, then what would the point be of being able to text for your balance? Surely they wouldn't offer you something like that while fulling knowing that it wouldn't be accurate. For the first year and a half, I never had a problem going over.
Then, suddenly, I got 7 overdraft fees in one day. Each for $35. Having no idea what caused my bank account to be so grossly overdrawn, I called chase. They were seemingly ignorant of what could have possibly allowed me to get a text stating I had any amount of money, when I didn't.
I went in. I paid this ridiculous fee. I sat down with someone and we went over my account. Apparently when I paid at the pump (just $50), it for some reason, didn't go through right away. They claim the gas station will sometimes put transactions through late. So my account showed money where there wasn't. I use my debit card for everything, to avoid carrying cash. The next 7 transactions were minor (ie - bottle of soda), and still, my account showed money available. A few days after these minute charges, the charge from the gas station went through, and processed for the same day I got gas. Instead of being charged 35 one time, for the gas that went through latest, I was charged 35 for each transaction afterwards. When I questioned Chase, I got the cold shoulder.
I went to a Chase branch in a different city to see if perhaps they were friendlier there. I intended to close my account if things were no better. A lady there talked me into keeping my account and signing up for overdraft protection, saying I would get the paperwork in the mail within the week, and I had the protection.
Apparently not, because this happened AGAIN. I have asked Chase why they offer the texting option. They can NOT give me a straight answer. Mostly I hear simply, "I'm not sure why."
I have gotten a Visa gift card to see how it works (since Chase gives VISA debit cards). Apparently paying at the pump for gas goes through immediately with a gift card. No waiting a week. So if the Visa gift card can handle the transaction immediately, then why not a Visa debit card?
This apparently doesn't only happen with pay at the pump. I STOPPED using my card at the gas station all together, and only used it at stores I had never had a problem with going through immediately. Suddenly, after over 2 years of NEVER once having had an in store purchase go through late, the SAME THING happened. Still, no answers, no help, no anything except the demand for payment.
I am tired of being lied to and manipulated by Chase, and strongly discourage anyone from ever dealing with them.